What Happens When You Stop Chasing Orgasm? Rahi Chun & Ariel Szabo on The Sex Reimagined Podcast

Lightly edited for readability. Speaker labels are approximate where the hosts’ voices overlap.

[00:00] Leah: Hey there, sex explorers. You have landed on the Sex Reimagined podcast. My name is Leah Piper. I’m your Tantra expert here and the co-host of the show. Yeah.

Willow: And I’m Dr. Willow Brown, your Taoist expert. And today we interviewed two really incredible souls. They are a divine union couple, Ariel Szabo and Rahi Chun. Ariel is a certified somatic sex educator, sexological bodyworker, and psychedelic medicine practitioner. She’s known as the cosmic midwife of the soul, holding sacred spaces for transformational sexual embodiment and evolution. And Rahi Chun is also a certified sex educator in sexological bodywork who specializes in genital de-armoring, which you’re going to hear all about. They love holding space individually and together for couples worldwide and with their online courses, Divine Union For Lovers. So check them out. You’re going to love this podcast. So much to learn. So please tune in, turn on, and fall in love with Rahi and Ariel.

Leah: Welcome to the Sex Reimagined podcast, where sex is shame-free and pleasure forward. Let’s get into the show.

Leah: Okay. Welcome to the Sex Reimagined podcast, Rahi and Ariel. We’re really happy to have you today.

Rahi & Ariel: Thank you so much for having us. Yeah. So great to be here.

Leah: So Rahi and Ariel have been working together and they are life partners and they’ve been really guiding couples through major phenomenal transformational experiences since I think March of last year. But both have very deep and extensive backgrounds in sexual healing, sexual health. And so I’m just I’d love to start with I asked Ariel a little bit earlier, you know, where how did you guys meet? I’d love to hear like more details of that story and how you guys came together.

Willow: The personal stuff. We want to hear the personal stuff. We love a love story.

Rahi: Sure. Well, you know, the question is which lifetime do you want to start with? Because we’ve actually Yeah. I mean, we’ve Let’s start with this lifetime. Okay. Okay. Okay. Well, in this lifetime, our paths crossed about four years ago, four or five years ago, as we’re both, you know, in the same field as you mentioned. We’re both certified as somatic sex educators, sexological bodyworker. And, we were just intrigued by each other’s work. I’ve always been drawn, I mean, from that point on, and Ariel’s been kind of a big instigator for me as far as my evolution and understanding of the wisdom and power of plant medicines. And so you know because she’s been so immersed in that world I’ve sought out her counsel as you know I’ve been exploring that personally and also from about 5 years ago I cannot tell you how many clients have said my sexual trauma my you know they my the images I’ve gotten clarity from an ayahuasca ceremony and so I’ve just kind of leaned into finding out more and more and recently you know we’ve started combining Grandfather San Pedro with sexual healing. So I’ve started seeking out her counsel back then. She was seeking out you know u I have an expertise in genital de-armoring. I teach it worldwide. And so Ariel’s taken my training in my course. And so and then it was just you know when it’s obvious it’s obvious. And so, you know, we’ve had many conversations about like power dynamics and kind of our relational dynamics cuz, you know, I sought out her council, she sought out mine. We really wanted it to be a clean container for, you know, what wanted to happen to happen. And it’s just really happened very organically and beautifully since.

[03:49] Willow: Ariel, what would you add to that to that love story?

Ariel: Well, I would add that it like really started to take off at a really cool coming together of a bunch of colleagues like experimenting with the intersections of psychedelics, plant medicines, and sacred intimacy. And that was Yeah. So that was a really like that kind of like put us on the magic carpet that we’ve been riding since then.

Willow: Now, were you guys both like looking for your life partner or were you kind of just happy as you were? Where were you at before it all sparked?

Rahi: Well, I probably like up to a year before we got together, like with every plant medicine journey I’d done, the intention was to clear, you know, past patterns, you know, like I mean, so many patterns of me being drawn to unavailable people, you know, that kind of a thing, and really needing to let go of that, letting go of kind of cord cutting with maternal attachments, you know, like all of that stuff. And then you know it there was this spaciousness and openness for you know this union to come in and I must say you know like I’m guessing your listeners have experienced something like this. It’s like when we met there was this almost an energetic communication happening between our bodies where like I would touch her shoulder and then intuitively my hand would want to go to her hip and then she would say oh my hip wanted that touch there. It was this kind of like nonverbal communication that I had never experienced before. Oh, wow. Yeah, it was wild.

Host: Wow. I really relate to that. I remember when my husband and I were just getting to know each other. He was actually a client, so I was one of those big bad taboo teachers who dated our client after I fired him, by the way. But it was really amazing. And like we would be walking down the street and like our hips would just keep on magnetizing towards each other. It was like we couldn’t walk side by side without our hips touching, you know, and then like we’re on this whale watching thing and like we couldn’t help but just him to come behind me first like hands just on either side of the rails, right? Me in the center and then the next thing you know the pelvis and the hips they connect. It’s so yummy. And yeah, I love that gravitational pull between lovers wanting to magnify magnetize each other. Really, really sexy stuff.

[06:36] Host: Okay. So, I have a question because we get this every once in a while. We’re seeing more and more practitioners who have had experiences in the plant medicine world who are also sex educators or in the sexual healing space starting to blend the two together. And I have been a part of two different types of traditions. Some traditions that go, those two don’t mix. You do plant medicine, you’re opening up a can of worms. They keep really the genders very separated when they’re doing medicine. So, we’ve got that type of tradition. And then we have these more ancient mystery school traditions where sacraments, mind-altering substances have been a part of the tradition for thousands of years. So, I’m really curious about what you’ve been experiencing blending the two. What is at risk when you do that? What are the complications? What are the dangers? What are the taboos? And then also what the what the miracles have been that you’ve observed either inside your own experiences or those with people that you’re leading.

Ariel: Yeah. Well, I think you know the danger is that there’s just more risk involved, which also means that there’s greater like reward formative potential. And I think it’s like it’s two different conversations when we’re talking about personal use of combination and serving it to clients in a combination. I use it a lot in my personal use. And it’s amazing and expansive and transformative. And I’m also mindful of the dosage that I’m using. And I think different things are available at different doses, whether you’re under a lighter dose or a higher dose. And I think, you know, okay, when I think about combining it for clients, you know, that can even look like so many different ways. When I facilitate ayahuasca retreats, not while people are in the medicine, but outside of that space, I might lead a somatic embodiment journey that is inviting them to get in touch with their sexual energy, touching their bodies, maybe being blindfolded and really just getting into their senses and their pleasure. And the transformations that I see with that, the feedback that I get from that is like this is so helpful. It’s opening me more to the medicine. It’s also helping me integrate what the medicine is bringing to me.

[09:18] Host: So let me just make sure I want to clarify this for the audience is that when it comes to ayahuasca for instance you’re not guiding them towards you know connecting to their sexual energy during their high of being on the medicine. You’re using it as an integration tool to help them integrate their experience from ayahuasca and also in preparation for their next ayahuasca journey that I’m imagining they’re drinking more than one time on an like this.

Ariel: Correct.

Host: Gotcha. Yeah. Yeah. I have found that to be so powerful as well simply because ayahuasca herself is such a force of divine feminine energy and so you know when we’re when we’re getting in touch with Shakti and so leading and guiding people into these somatic experiences in between journeys on a you know weekend retreat like that it really it really awakens what the medicine has to offer in such a different and unique way. It’s really profound. I’m curious if you guys ever do, I know you work with huachuma, which is San Pedro, as well. And I’m curious if you are ever blending the two at the same time. You know, if you’re ever doing, let’s say, pelvic floor work, de-armoring while somebody is on the medicine at that moment, or if it’s always, you know, we’re going to do medicine today and we’re going to do pelvic floor work tomorrow.

Host: And I just want to preface that I want to make sure that we’re not jumping too far ahead using language that listeners have no idea what we’re talking about. For instance, there may be people listening that have never heard of ayahuasca before. There may be people listening that don’t know what San Pedro is and what it does. There are lots of people who probably don’t know what we’re talking about when you’re talking about de-armoring genitals or pelvic floor release work. So, we don’t go into huge long descriptions, but as we’re sort of putting language out there that a beginner has never heard of before, if you could just give us a snippet explanation of what you’re referring to so that we’re not losing anybody in the conversation.

Ariel: Yeah. So, you know, Rahi and I have been at a retreat together that we held where we’ve combined, but this is couples working with one another. We’re not working on them. Okay. And it’s a low dose and it’s very profound and powerful and you know that particular medicine which is from a cactus the active compound in it is masculine it’s not a medicine that generally gives people lots of visions and especially at a lower dose it really huachuma literally which is another name for the same medicine San Pedro. It literally means without a head. So it brings you into your body and helps you connect with your heart and your feelings and your sensations more.

[12:16] Host: Does it make it more erotic when you are more connected to your sensations or is it maybe processing things that are not erotic stuck?

Ariel: Yeah. Like it can be both. It’s kind of whatever the person needs is what’s going to happen.

Host: Sure. And also guided by their intentions.

Ariel: Yeah. And yeah, so like you know how we have had experiences together of combining them. I mean I can I can speak from my practice that the majority of the work that I do is actually keeping the two separate. And that if we are going to combine them, there has to be a lot of trust. It’s definitely not going to happen the first time that we’re meeting or the second time probably. But and the reason that this is because these medicines blur boundaries and make consent even more nuanced and layered already is. That’s why you need to be so careful with how you approach this, the way it’s introduced. What dosage are you using? If you are combining the two things, does the person even have experience with the medicine before doing this? Should you really be com combining two potent medicines if the person doesn’t already have experience with each potent medicine on their own?

Host: And when you say two potent medicines, you’re speaking to sexual healing and the San Pedro or huachuma. And so when Go Rahi, were you going to say? Yeah, let’s

Rahi: Yeah. I just really wanted to highlight the experience of this couples’ retreat. It was two days. The first day was really spent on creating a safe container. So, you know, Leah, what you would ask of what you had touched on earlier, what that looks like is really understanding, you know, something that we call the eight pillars of intimacy. They’re really principles and values of slowing down, of pausing, of noticing what’s really happening within your body, of attuning to what it is that your body’s feeling moment by moment. So, the first day was really establishing that safety and also I love that. Yeah. And also encouraging, you know, as Ariel said, these were three couples, so they knew each other. I mean, it was a range of couples to be honest with you. One couple was on their third date. They came to this three-day, you know. Yeah. And then Let’s do this. We’re going all in. We’re building a foundation. Yes. Yes. By diving into the deep end, which is exactly what they did. Fantastic. But going to your point earlier as to you know whether the San Pedro made it you know made them more erotic. It was really interesting because after 2 days of facilitating one-way touch which included genital mapping right so really educating the erogenous anatomy via a felt sense. We found that the medicine just met each couple where they were ready to go deeper. So there was one couple that had been together for 13 years and this the healing ceremony that we witnessed them go through was deeply emotional and healing, right? Where the receiver asked the giver to apologize to different areas of their vulva. Whereas the couple that were on their third date, I mean, she said she had the most ecstatic orgasm of her life. And that’s what they were ready for. So we found that the Grandfather San Pedro really met like each couple, each body after two days of one-way touch, like where it was ready to go next in a much deeper way.

[16:09] Willow: I love that. You know, there’s a couple things that I would love to go deeper on with what you said. I would want to hear more about a what container is. You know, we hear that word a lot. Container or holding space in a lot of the therapeutic circles. But how does someone create a container? And then what are these eight pillars of intimacy? And also I’m curious, you know, in this particular container that you set for these three couples, were they on their own in their own separate room or was everyone in a room together when they were practicing on the San Pedro?

Rahi: Yeah, so a couple of things. Containers. The eight pillars and how we facilitated the couples. What do you want to take, Ariel?

Ariel: I’ll do the eight pillars, but you start with something else.

Rahi: Okay. So, as far as the containers, so you know, in plant medicine work, there’s a lot of talk about set and setting, and I feel like it’s really applicable to sacred sexuality containers as well. You know there are so for you know we started the container with a zoom for everyone to get to know each other and to share the intentions but it the container is really defined by the agreements that everyone shares. So you know there are certain agreements that I think are kind of you know make sense and are applicable to most containers. Confidentiality, boundaries, self-care, self- responsibility. But we’re really big on inviting emotions into the container because we know that, you know, what’s going to cause a breakthrough within a couple or within a body is to kind of metabolize whatever emotion that’s been creating an obstacle in the in the energy flow in the body’s response. And so we’re really big on inviting all kinds of emotions. And with that kind of tone set, the container in, you know, it really invites and encourages the emotions. And we found that it was actually the men, they were three heterosexual couples who were deeply vulnerable from the get-go and that really sets a tone. And then were encouraging. Love that. Yeah. Yeah. It was really inspiring. And then we kept, you know, the agreements are like on a whiteboard and we continue to refer back to it. So it’s almost like the values and principles of, you know, being emotionally open, being vulnerable, like taking self- responsibility are returned to and reminded of again and again throughout the weekend.

[18:54] Host: I love that. So those are the agreements that everyone kind of comes up with together. So you kind of are like writing these agreements down as people are throwing them out in the beginning to set the tone for the entire weekend.

Ariel: The tone. Yes. The tone is so important. Yeah. Yeah. And I like to think of too the container as really what’s predictable because there’s so much that’s unpredictable when we’re going into our bodies and our emotions. So the container is what’s going to anchor people so that they do have something to like hold on to. Know is reliable so that they can go into what’s unknown and for a lot of people that can feel pretty scary.

Host: Is there any other like building of the container that you guys do as far as like calling in the elements, calling in spiritual support, calling in guides, calling in guardians, that kind of thing?

Ariel: Yeah. I mean, I would say there’s a good amount that we do that is unseen by the participants and then there’s some of it that we do that is seen and with the participants.

Willow: Gotcha. Yeah. So, you kind of even before they even show up have already set the field quote unquote, so to speak. Yeah. Love that.

Rahi: Yeah. I love I love your languaging in that Willow. So we Ariel and I have organically kind of cultivated our own rituals you know calling in our guides, their guides and our own kind of energy circulation to make sure that we’re holding the container clean and then you know from there we invite the container within the organism of the group.

Host: I love that. I’m curious before we move on from container setting and setting tone and space and all of that and holding space like what h what have your participants come to you afterwards with in reference to that? Have they come to you and said things like god you guys hold amazing space or wow the container you set was so powerful or that we all set together thank you for helping us create co-create it or what anything along those lines. Did they notice that?

Guest: Yeah, I think so. Yeah, the you know, we did a cacao ceremony recently and all of the feedback like the common thread was about the container and how the container allowed them to for their inner children to come out and be seen by their partners, for example, you know, or that they were surprised that, you know, things that they didn’t think would you know, things that surprised them in regards to their vulnerability. And they referred back to the to the safety of the container.

[21:37] Ariel: Yeah. Yeah. And I think a lot of what also makes a container feel that way for participants has to do with the nervous system of the facilitators. Because if you’re really grounded, people might not even be conscious that that’s what they’re responded to. But then they can kind of co-regulate with the most grounded nervous systems in the room.

Host: Mhm. Absolutely. Beautiful. Great. Let’s jump to unless you had a followup. Yeah. The eight pillars of intimacy. The eight pillars. Take it away.

Ariel: I love the eight pillars of intimacy. I feel like these are really the like skills that all of us can build to have a deeply intimate and satisfying relationship with ourselves and then of course other beings and the world around us in general. So the pillars are first slowing down so that you don’t miss cues from your own body, other people’s bodies. Then pausing. So like taking a sacred pause so that you can then notice what is even happening for you, your sensations, your emotions and then attune to what’s happening and then therefore what you might need, want, desire. And then from there accept it like accept what is true from you for you moment to moment. This is one a lot of people struggle with because we might not like what’s happening. We might want to push it away and suppress it. And then trust it. Like trust what your body is telling you, your physical body, your emotional body, and then value it. Value it enough to take up space with it. And then communicate whatever you need to with the person you’re in relationship with or make any adjustments necessary.

Host: Do you guys have a what is it? Acronym for your eight pillars so people can remember them easily.

Ariel: Yeah, we are like in the midst of kind of creating a visual.

Host: Okay. Okay. Good. I like that. I love it. So, we’ve got slowing down, pausing, noticing, attuning, accepting. I forget what’s after that.

Ariel: Trusting, valuing, communicating.

Willow: Ah, they go in such a nice order. Yes, that’s all eight. Okay, that’s all eight. Okay, great. Great. That’s beautiful. Leah and I always say three pillars to intimacy, which is trust, presence, and vulnerability, you know. So, it’s sort of a more simplified version of what you guys have. But I love that. I love those eight pillars. Those are fantastic, and they build on each other. Yes. I especially love the slowing down and the pausing, you know? It’s like really like be even more in the moment than and you can’t do that if you’re going so fast, you know, to like really be in the moment. You’ve got to be right there. And that is not a fast processing experience. That’s like really here.

[24:34] Host: Yeah. I love I love that you guys are bringing the pause in because I feel like that is such one of the most valuable and yeah underrated like phenomenal practices that we could have in all of life and I really learned it studying pre and perinatal psychology and it was they I think they have seven things that like help you come closer together inside of intimacy and relationship and the pause was just highlight lighted over and over again. So, ever since I did that training however many years ago, you know, I’ve really been introducing it to people and nobody thinks about it. Nobody knows about the pause and so everyone who’s listening like it’s okay to pause and that pause could be three minutes, it could be three days, it could be three years. Like the pause is as long as you need the pause to be. So that noticing piece that you have in there as well is like really, you know, noticing and attuning like am I done with my pause yet? Am I really truly done with my pause or am I feeling pressure from outside to be done with my pause earlier? So that pause can be such a sacred practice in all of life and especially in sexuality because there’s you know in sort of traditional sexuality there’s such a frenzy and a fastness to it like let’s hurry up and get to the finish line and there’s so much missed felt sense because of that lack of being able to take sexual sovereignty and really pause.

Host: I think too there’s something really interesting that we are in a habit of which is going so fast we’re not feeling or attuning to the sensations or to our arising desires or to what we need that may be different from what we’re getting. And so to be able not to rush through that or to skip through it. I I’ve watched over the years, I think especially with vulva owners in particular, abandon their needs in sexual experiences. They’re like rushing through it almost to just only sometimes just to please the other person just to get it over. Just get it over, but like not really. It’s that it’s just to get it over is one thing, but I think half of that is due to the fact that we’re not investigating what our real desires are, what the potential of what it is that we want that’s different. And so we end up landing in this place of just knowing what we don’t want instead of discovering what we do want. And so I love this idea of the combination of slowing down, attuning, looking, accepting. And that accepting is very can be very crunchy. I think what you sort of were referring to Ariel, it’s like a just being with not getting maybe what we need or b not knowing what we and having to like be in that place of discovery. And sometimes that takes time to find out what how what would you add to that, Rahi?

[27:52] Rahi: Well, I just love how intentionally sequenced these pillars are because they do build on each other and it starts with slowing down and to your both of your points to pausing. You know, I we both Ariel and I are very aware and like love to point out to couples how as soon as you know one person’s body feels arousal, it’s almost they’re like they’re on a unstoppable train track to orgasm and they’re missing out on like the expansive terrains along the way. And what I love about pausing is, you know, like it takes into account how moment by moment every things are changing. You know, sensations, feelings, desires can shift moment to moment. And the slowing down and pausing really takes I mean really every step of the eight pillars takes all of that into consideration. And you know one of our participants pointed out that the first seven are actually internal experiences until the communicating comes at the eighth. And that’s how much like self inquiry and examination we feel like is necessary for people to really engage and be satiated in the desires that their body wants.

Host: M. And now have you noticed that in this recent event that you did with the with the plant medicine, was there a particular pillar like the pause or acceptance that medicine really helped people you know settle into more inside of themselves?

Ariel: I don’t I don’t know if it’s really coming from me as a pillar. It feels more just like the like the truth, the deepest emotions just came to the surface. So that kind of like reflects all of the pillars really. Right. Right. To get in touch with what your true authentic emotions are. You know, you really you I think like unconsciously we are going we’re either rushing through those eight pillars or we’re over overwriting those eight pillars, right? But to really slow down the process invites that kind of emotional excavation and honoring.

Leah: Lovely. So now let’s find out how you’re facilitating these couples in the classroom. Back to Dr. Willow’s original question a while back.

Rahi: Right. Right. Well, the space which was held in my space here allowed for each couple to have the privacy of their own bedroom, right? Where whereas we met and demoed each one-way touch practice in the living area. So the big circle, the opening circle, the closing circle, the group shares, we had a great space in the living area, but then each couple had the privacy of their own room to really go as deep or as wide or however their exploration carried them.

[30:51] Host: Oh, that’s nice. So there was there was like a cohesive group experience and there was option to just go private and do your own thing. Exactly.

Host: Love that. Well, one of the things I know was on my list to dig in deep with was talking about extended states of arousal and how you guide people into that. What does that mean to the two of you? What does that mean to your students?

Ariel: Yeah. So extended states of arousal are really like luxuriating in low states of arousal, medium states of arousal, high states of arousal without going over the edge. So if we think about pleasure on a dial from 0 to 10, like zero being like not really aroused, 10 being there’s a release in orgasm. Then like what is it like to stay for a long period of time in three or what about five or what about seven or eight? And what I find particularly in the low and medium states is that a lot of unmetabolized emotional material will come to the surface. It’s almost like the arousal, right? It like feels good. So it opens the system and then things just start coming up and if you’ve if you’re in a container that you’ve created with the intention of like allowing these things to arise and tend to them it can be like whoa unbelievable metabolizing and healing can take place of what arises I find in the when like luxuriating spending time in the higher states of arousal like maybe like 6 7 8 9. It can become this like one with the universe, blissful in a cloud like consciousness expanding. All boundaries have dissolved between me, my partner, and the world around me.

Leah: Yeah. Very transcendent. Yeah. I love that space. That’s the best. Yeah. Well, yes. But I just want to add too, I think sometimes like we’re always in a rush. I think sometimes especially like when you look at like tantric sort of philosophies and stuff, I think a lot of people get carried away and this desire to want to reach like eight and nine, eight and nine, like that’s the ultimate. And it’s true that those transcendent states have a level of profundity that is very different from what we have access to in the lower numbers, but I think what’s really beautiful about the lower numbers is that they’re so they’re less investigated. And because they’re not so colorful all the time, like they’re not sweeping you away, you can have experiences of self-realization. There can be a certain amount of self-acceptance and like an acknowledgment that there’s bliss here too. That we don’t always have to be in the rush to give up to the higher numbers. It’s like, but who am I at a 2.2? What does the sensation in the back of my throat compared to the tip of my clitoris feel like at a at a 3.1? And can I be as in love? Can I bring sort of a sense of euphoria and bliss to these more common, less exalted places? I think there’s a really interesting challenge there to invite the seeker to explore. That sometimes for people it almost seems like it’s intolerable. You know what I mean? Because we get so goal-oriented because get higher. Yeah. Because we’re valuing higher is better, right? And I think to allow people to come into these places that are less extraordinary helps us see life differently. It then when we extend outward out of the sexual realm into other sectors of our life. Not all of life has to be one bliss goal. We can actually see like the beauty in boredom. We can see the beauty in the mundane. We can see, we can look for the beauty where most of the time we’re not consciously choosing to do so. That’s my little tangent.

[35:26] Willow: That’s a great tangent, Leah. I think one of the things that’s really powerful about both sacred sexual healing work and plant medicine individually and also together is we get the we h it’s it almost like offers us more permission to jump between those things. Like it’s okay to go up and hang out in the 89 for a while and then come back down to the 34 and just hang out there for a while, you know? And so it doesn’t always have to be like you’re climbing a ladder and you can’t go back to lower stages. And it’s almost like in my experience, you have more appreciation for those lower stages, you know, of arousal. Absolutely. When you’ve, you know, when you’re just coming off of a big rush from an eight or something like that.

Rahi: So essentially what we’re doing with couples is deconstructing the default conditioned physiological and psychological response where arousal has to lead to orgasm or arousal has to go to s some kind of result. We want to expand and just open the playing field so that you can go from a three to an eight to a five to a nine. And those lower states, you know, as you both, you know, beautifully articulated, there’s so many untapped terrains to explore there. But at the same time, once we start exploring the 8 zone, we realize, you know, there is an 8.125, there is an 8.1226, you know, like the 8 to9 starts to elongate. And then what we love doing is after a love making session of an 8.9 meditate and just be still and go about our day with that vibrant, you know, that with that frequency, right? So that we’re going about and you know, we go to Whole Foods and all of a sudden everyone’s trying to help us for some reason. You know what I mean? And everyone’s smiling at you. Yeah. Every everyone is giving us attention and then we come back and then when we start making love again it picks up from that you know eight zone and we continue to elongate what is actually possible and what kind of states of consciousness you know our vessels have the capacity for.

Host: Oh I love that. I love this word deconstruct. It’s allowing us to actually this is where I think pleasure really becomes a path of self-realization. Yes. Where we can take a look at arousal and allow and stretch it out like taffy. I always tell people, look, we’re so obsessed with the destination that we’re forgetting that the best part of the journey is going on the ride. And you don’t want the ride to just be one direction. We’re just going up. The ride has got to have some hills. We got to have some We got to like do a turnabout. We need to We need to have some roundabouts turned into those hills and those valleys and curving around the mountains. We want and that’s really where I think people become the best lovers is when they know how to take someone’s system on a ride. Yes. Because that’s what really this whole thing around putting love into our bodies and using arousal as our playground. It’s about being on a ride. And the thing that I think is so dangerous in our in this time that we’re living in is our is our need and our chase of dopamine dumps. It’s like give me that next hit. Grabbed my attention with the way that we’re looking at screens and the way that we’re so hungry for information. We’re actually not allowing our body to go down. It’s like we can’t just have peak peaks. We actually need to go down healthfully. Otherwise, we’re robbing ourselves of dopamine, and we’re going to experience things like depression and anxiety and these other negative states of emotions by now allowing ourselves to take and dial down our system. To actually allow ourselves to go through hard things, to feel everything that comes with an obstacle, not be in a chase to just get over the obstacle, but take our time there. Like allow everything that life has to give us and not only be chasing these dopamine dumps, which I think when we’re chasing orgasm, and this is where things like sex addiction and love addiction and other things become problematic because we’re chasing the hit. And I love what you’re saying, Rahi, because when we can slow things down and we allow ourselves to actually stop before we have the climax, we stay at a moment of high arousal and then we allow this meditative experience to happen and then we go do the mundane. We go to the grocery store. I think what happens, which is just such a beautiful phenomenon, is we’re learning how to take that turn on and make it a life experience so that we’re turned on. We’re taking that turn on into the world. And you’re right, people are noticing because we’re lit up from the inside and that is magnetic. And when we are living a turned on life, there’s an osmosis. There’s mirror neurons that we can then use to turn on other people. So, we’re giving them permission to also be turned on. And I just think that’s kind of really beatific in its radiance. It’s an arousal ripple.

[40:43] Host: So, ripple. It’s an arousal ripple. And we’re shifting from orgasm to orgasmic states of being. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And we’re taking that peace we feel in the in that place, that feeling of contentment, that feeling of presence, and we’re letting that be present in the world, which is something I think we’re really in need of is this experience of others in a peaceful place, you know, like because don’t we feel better when we’re sitting next to someone who has who’s experiencing contentment and peace? Doesn’t that also give us permission to like settle down into our own nervous system that may be feeling a bit overwhelmed or under-resourced? So I feel like from like a universal level, this has a ripple effect in the world, not just for our own being or maybe the effect it has on our lover, but really how it can affect a stranger.

Rahi: Totally. Totally. 100%. And it does require, you know, like why are we so fixated on orgasm or like, you know, there’s generations now their sex ed is porn and the glorified shot is what they call quote unquote the money shot and that’s when the party ends. I just I never understood why is that the money shot? That means the party’s over. You know, that’s such a good point. But it really you know we it invites us to examine like what is what’s our sexual ego and identity invested in? Is it the orgasm or is it you know as you’re speaking to really this deep profound peace that can spread throughout you know your family your friends your community kind of throughout the world.

Leah: Yeah. So I’m curious but I don’t you know will I want to make sure that you don’t have something biting at the bit before I ask another question. Go for it. Okay. So, I’m curious about when people are contacting you, what are they, you know, because most of the time people are contacting us to work with us because they’re facing a problem in their life. There’s something that they feel called to work on. So, what are some of the problems? What are what what’s the pain? What’s the story of people’s pain that they’re coming to you asking for support and help with?

Ariel: Well, I think it like, you know, there’s different contexts, but it’s always comes back to wanting deeper connection.

Host: Yeah, that’s satisfying connection. Yeah, satisfying intimacy. Yeah, I could see that. That is like what it strips down to. But I would like to know a little bit more about the context because I think for the listener, it will help them feel, yeah, that’s what I’m struggling with. Can you say a little about the context because I feel like that’s what people connect to first and then it’s the realization that what they’re hungry for is connection. Yeah.

[43:41] Ariel: So I can give a couple examples that are coming to mind for me now are like patterns of enduring between couples like doing things that they’re not actually really wanting but not knowing how to change it or express it to their partner. There can be like people who are struggling are anorgasmic or people who have erectile dysfunction. I don’t know Rahi, what else is coming to your mind?

Rahi: Well, I do feel like the underlying is a desire for connection and another underlying is not knowing how to get there. And you know, so much of what we do is facilitate kind of a re-education for couples to learn about their bo each other’s bodies through one-way touch. So, you know, we’re both somatic sex educators and kind of a pillar of our education is around one person doing nothing but being present to the sensations of receiving touch. And in that, we can recondition past patterns. And people learn so much about each other’s bodies that they like, you know, people could have been married decades and they never realize, oh, my wife likes the light feathery touch. I just didn’t have that in my arsenal, you know. Totally. So, one way touch is really big. And then, you know, another pillar of our of our work is what we call genital mapping. You know, I mentioned this earlier, what we did facilitated for the couples. It’s really understanding the erogenous anatomy and how much time it takes and how much time you can enjoy spending right like warming up getting the blood flowing you know exploring with different combine different erogenous parts of the you know vulva and vagina or the you know perineum and the base of the shaft or the frenulum I mean there just so many different combinations that people don’t know about and it’s their body, you know, it’s their body. So, I would say in addition to the enduring, which is a huge piece is you know, it’s really like learning sex education for the first time, you know, but you know, like a felt sense sex education. So couples are really learning like how much downregulation of their partner’s nervous system is required for them to even feel stuff you know and that requires you know understanding each other’s nervous system histories and you know childhood ruptures and just creating that safe container so that the body can actually feel safe to respond.

[46:19] Willow: I love that. Love that. Rahi, can you talk a little bit about the de-armoring, what that is and the practice of it, and then at what point you might teach couples how to do that on each other, I’m imagining after they’ve learned one-way touch and they’ve learned genital mapping and some of these more foundational pieces that you’re speaking to.

Rahi: Sure. So to define it simply, genital armor is the unconscious guarding patterns that the tissue and fascia of the body resort to when they’re feeling a threat or a perceived threat, right? And that could be you know I mean the extreme example would be sexual violation but that could also be religious shaming, cultural shaming, you know like getting whistles whistled and cat calls for parts of your body that you feel shy about. So that can start to create guarding in different parts of the body. And what that is often is unmetabolized emotions from past experiences. So to your point Willow, you know, the keys before de-armoring is approached really requires understanding what the nervous system needs to feel safe. How to embody I’m sorry, how to empower the body to advocate for what it wants. So it’s only receiving the kinds and quality of touch it desires. And then the mapping process, you know, with those in place, you can start to have a safe container. Again, the container is so important to start to release these unconscious guarding patterns that may have been in place since childhood. And you know what that does is it restricts your capacity to really feel sensations. So it shows up as numbness or pain or discomfort or desensitization.

Host: And so is the de-armoring process and practice generally an uncomfortable one or can there be pleasure in woven in with it as well?

Rahi: Right. So you know I’m a big advocate of any de-armoring session should be at least 50% pleasurable and fun otherwise Yeah. Because that resources the body to want to inhabit itself more and gives the incentive for the body to continue de-armoring if there’s pleasure on the other side. So that’s a really big piece of it.

Host: Right. And isn’t it also true that like there’s genital de-armoring like maybe where we go into the pelvic floor and we find these tender points and we unravel and unwind them. But then there’s also there’s also like in the hips, in the groin, in the sacrum, in the like in the center of the glutes and the fold of the glutes, like all of the whole kind of hip girdle can have armor in it.

[49:21] Rahi: Absolutely. Absolutely. So you know you know one of one of my teachers shares that most pelvic armor happens before the age of seven and has nothing to do with sexuality.

Host: Well that’s very interesting. Tell us more about that.

Rahi: Well it’s like the way the chakra systems are developed. It’s the root chakra that develops first. And you know when you’re three and your parent says oh don’t touch that. Like what contracts is your pelvis. And so all of those, you know, unmetabolized emotions that, oh, my sister got more attention than me or, you know, I couldn’t play when I wanted to, like all of those things could be stored there, much less like, you know, potty training, like diaper training.

Host: Potty training is got to be totally a big element to that of like go transitioning from being able to just let go and then all of a sudden you have to now control this. Yeah. And get to the bathroom. Like how much we grip and then how much we grip for the rest of our life. I mean, how many of us have a tight ass, right? Uptight as a home, right? It’s your first chakra, right?

Rahi: It’s the first chakra. And you know, let’s not forget we are sponges as children. And we’re absorbing all of our parents un unmabed, un you know, un resolved, you know, sexual issues about their own genitalia which we feel when they touch us, right? Right. But, you know, like I mean, you know, Ariel’s gone through this incredible transformation of de-armoring of her own body, and I would

Host: Yeah, I’d love to I’d love to hear like what that process was like. I mean as far as like because like my body of course everyone has armor but I my body itself hasn’t taken the journey of like being fully armor being armored to de-armoring and so I’m always like in awe of bodies that go through that journey. Yeah. Ariel, is that something you’ve experienced and do you want to share a bit about it?

Ariel: Okay. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. So I would say I started to become really aware of armor in my body in a new way when I actually started training to become a sexological bodyworker. I mean I was aware of like years of sexual trauma that I was moving through. But I hadn’t really I wasn’t aware of it to the degree until I started becoming more educated on how armor can even look and show up. And then I started really like working with my own body. Just with like gentle touch and really practicing the pillars. And doing a lot of plant medicine. And those two things, I mean, it was over a period of years, really just opened me up. And as I was starting to become more attuned with my own body and like really be gentle and loving with it, the types of relationships that I was seeking out and involving myself in also became more loving and nurturing, which also helped my body open more because I was creating a safe container for myself with myself and with the people around me.

[53:01] Host: Quite a quite an unfolding like an organic unfolding and yeah and process and journey and what would you say has like where you’re at now with the journey like the outcome quote unquote like where yeah

Ariel: I mean it’s pretty amazing you know like I’m going from living mostly in disassociation to being able to spend hours upon hours in extended states of arousal being completely open to my beloved. So, it’s kind of like a complete other side is like night and day. Yeah.

Host: I love that. That’s awesome. So beautiful. So powerful. Well, thank you so much for the two of you being here today. I know people can find you at divineunionforlovers.com. That’s the website that you have together.

Guest: Yeah, it’s actually divineunionforlovers.com.

Host: Oh, thank you. Divineunionforlovers.com and Ariel will soon be residing with Rahi in Santa Monica. So really excited for your future events. And you work well you do you do workshops and you also work one-on-one with folks? Yeah. Yes. Okay. And are you specializing just in couples or are you working with individuals as well?

Ariel: Yeah, we do work with couples and then I work with individuals, Rahi works with individuals. Yeah. Yeah. We work with individuals, couples. We have a range of different couples retreats and workshops. And then we have our online course divineunionforlovers.com. And then Oh, great. Yeah. Yeah. And then yeah, we’ll start the retreats will likely be in Costa Rica and here in Santa Monica.

Host: Oh, wonderful. Fabulous. So, we all like to go on vacation. And then I believe you both have your own websites. Ariel, you can be found at sacredmoonflower.com. Okay. And Rahi, yours is somaticsexualwholeness.com. Correct. And Rahi has a wonderful podcast that you all can check out as well. He just hosted Leah and I on his podcast recently and he is a wealth of information. So, lots to learn and digest and you know, reach out to if you’ve been curious about plant medicine. These two amazing human beings are very safe people to reach out to connect with. If you’re curious, even if you’re not ready, but you’re just a little curious, I would recommend both of them highly. Yeah. And the name of Rahi’s podcast is Organic Sexuality. Love that. Thank you. Cool. We’ll have we’ll have links in the show notes for everyone so that you can reach out and work with these two beautiful souls.

[55:50] Leah: Next up is the dish with Dr. Willow and myself. So, please stay tuned. Now, our favorite part, the dish. What fine educators they are. I really loved their way that they spoke about, you know, things that are certainly in our repertoire as educators, but I’m really loving what how they have developed it. I love their eight pillars of intimacy. Eight pillars are great. Yeah. So good. We’re gonna have to use those. Absolutely. We’ll be we’ll be implementing some of that into our own pillars somehow some way. So stay tuned you guys. We’re probably going to have some a really funny extra iteration of our own. And I you know the one-way touch of course is familiar. Our languaging is a little bit different as we kind of break usually use language like the giver and receiver, but it’s really true when you break it down, it’s just one way touch and how much you can discover. In fact, it’s the only way to discover so much subtle sensation that gets bypassed and overlooked when two people are trying to do the same thing at the same time. How could you ever learn your the things that really open you the biggest and really give yourself the gift of learning how to receive at a profound and new level?

Host: Yeah. Yeah. I love you know the work that they’re doing with plant medicine and how they’re incorporating that with sexual healing and teaching people one-way touch and couples who’ve been together for long periods of time who are discovering new things about themselves about their own bodies about their partners’ bodies learning how to pause learning how to attune so valuable and so important and you know the integration of their work with San Pedro and with Ariel using some ayahuasca and some of her other work as well. I think you know whenever I’ve been in the field of integrating them as well, I’ve just seen how powerful and how opening it can be to clearing old blocks, clearing things that are holding you back from intimacy, the fear, the shame, the doubt, the guilt, all that [ __ ] gets to just get uprooted in a single day sometimes. And it’s just so powerful to see what transpires then the next day and how much more openness and connectedness within there is so that the connection with partner can be so much stronger. So really would highly recommend checking out their offerings for couples and as well as the work that they do with individuals. I mean on the same note with or without medicine I think with medicine that gets really amplified on a deep rooted magical way. What I love is how much they’re helping people discover within those pillars, like the seven pillars before communication, really working on what does intimacy feel like in your own body, like learning how to be good at intimacy. That has to happen first on the inside before you can bring it to another person or experience. And so I was really touched and inspired by how much they’re really helping people map that out in their system before engaging in the way with which we share it with others. I think that’s something unique and I look forward to expanding on that in my own work.

[59:26] Host: Absolutely. And one final thing that I want to highlight that I just loved that Rahi really shared was the de-armoring process and what that actually means because that’s a that’s a big word in our field these days de-armoring. And so he really unpacked that nicely and described it and shared the value of it and what’s possible. And I love that he you know highlighted too that he you know half of the session should be pleasure and half should be the deeper clearing because you know I’ve had de-armoring work and I’m like oh that was so painful and not pleasant you know and then I’ve had pleasure de-armoring as well and it’s just it’s a completely different experience for your soma. It’s so you integrate the release of the old stuff so much better when there’s pleasure involved as well.

Host: Well, I think also like de-armoring is a word that means that has different techniques for different practitioners. So, you can’t just say there’s one kind of de-armoring people. There’s there are schools out there that do de-armoring. They’re all different. So, there’s no like one way to describe de-armoring per practitioner. There’s not a ton of schools that are doing it. I know of maybe two or three systems. There might be more out there. So it’s very important that if you are feeling called to explore de-armoring that you interview a number of people and find out what that means to them and their process so that you are choosing the one that most resonates with you. Do not get confused that when someone says de-armoring that it’s the same thing for every practitioner. Yeah. And then also sometimes people are doing de-armoring but they don’t call it that. So you know the pelvic the pelvic floor work that I do is it’s the same idea. It’s the same thing. It’s the same concept.

Host: All right everyone have a beautiful day. We’ll see you on the flip side. And by the way, do not be oh what’s the word? Timid. Oh please do not be stingy on your likes and your comments. Like we really need those in order to help the show grow. It just takes such a short amount of time to really help us expand our viewership. So, please be generous with those comments. We so appreciate them and we read every single one. With that, have a gorgeous afternoon, morning, or evening. Love, love, love. Thanks for tuning in. This episode was hosted by Tantric sex master coach and positive psychology facilitator Leah Piper as well as by Chinese and functional medicine doctor and Taoist sexology teacher Dr. Willow Brown. Don’t forget your comments, likes, subscribes, and suggestions matter. Let’s realize this new world